Made my day as well!!
Goddamn TRUE!!

I got the info thru bbthots blog.

Ha!!

mr. lazy geek please dont jump the gun in self anointing NAYAKAN into any list, because the screen play of that movie was lifted from several sources, if youre a film student(not neccesarily film institute)you will know that the movie borrows from 1. terms of endearmnet, 2.once upon a time in america, and many of the classic photographic situations were stolen from illustrations that were published in magazines conducting best photograher's contest.
do your research properly

post a comment true,
and the naysayers descend upon in droves.
hackles raised, they vent their spleen,
raining their distorted verbal blows.
plagiarism they shout,
living their lives inspired by someone else.
they seek orginality from everything around them,
but are content to beg, borrow, steal ideas themselves.
applaud they will a foreign good,
for that is their benchmark of creativity at best.
blinkered they remain in their belief,
that everything else fails in their subjective litmus test.
appreciate, applaud, encourage wholesome efforts,
else keep silent, but refrain from displaying belligerent 'tudes.
let self-professed film students and the likes match the efforts of the movies they blacklist,
then they can teach just what good filmmaking is to us enlightened dudes.

katz

Lazy,

Great news!!!!!

arun,

Relax dude. Either you like it or not, Nayakan is one of the best indian movies EVER made!!!

And FYI lazy doesnt own the TIME Magazine and he didnt write THAT article :-) Why on earth he should do a research on what is published in TIME magazine?

Do you do a research on every article you read/come across? Take the chill pill!!

By the way I want to as you one question. 'Neenga nallavara kettavara?'

pal-katz
now i know why we are suffering from extreme drought in tamil nadu-if your holy grail is mani ratnam-god help you and your ilk.
arun

arun,

whatever may be your complaint, nayakan was a definitely a superb attempt at film making. every department accomplished their tasks brilliantly and the end product was a sheer cinematic delight. i am positive that your bias against nayakan has to do more with personal reasons than any cinema related ones despite your self-professment of being a so-called film student. cinema is not all about coming up with an original idea, cinema is all about execution and how seamless the resulting end product is in enthralling the fans.

far to go, film student has,
before a master, he can become.
darth vader not luke skywalker will he,
if care not taken, become!

katz

Lazy, there is a pod-cast link on that page. A 20 MB mp3 file. Havent listened to it yet.
Podcast: Corliss and Schickel Talk

good one, katz... :)

Guru dutt's Pyaasa made the list too as did Ray's The Apu Trilogy!

so you mean to say you will execute the same nayakan again and again like dalapathi, pagal nilavu, udhayam, desam, etc...i don't think it ENTHRALLED the audience-cinema is attempting novelty

Mr lazygeek,

Nice comments...

Arun,

You never fail to amuse us man. A film student who is trying to find out why there is a drought in tamilnadu, by researching from where movies are being lifted??

Way to go dude!!!

Haaa. There he goes again!

Nayagan didnt enthrall the audience?? Which audience?

Interesting debate!Altho' I would beg to differ on Arun's comments. I wonder how many ppl in Tamil Nadu or for that matter India ( I mean the mass audience) would have watched The Terms of Endearment, Once Upon a Time in America or even GodFather for that matter, at the time when Nayakan was released.
So, for a layman watching this movie, it would have been an awe-inspiring experience.There was nothing foreign abt the way in which the movie was made or the way in which the story was told.Its by far one of the best performances of Kamal.Great songs by Raja, excellent photography.
And more importantly, every Indian living in the Basti could have related to this movie.
I'm glad that Time Magazine voted it among the Top 100 movies.

Arun, can understand your agony. Life is to live, not to analyse. Movies are to be enjoyed, not to be researched. True that the essence of a movie is lost when somethings are lifted from somewhere else.

Even if "Nayagan" was inspired, look at the imapct that it has created. Even today after 15 odd years, this movie remains to be most's favourite movie. And if you say it has not had an effect on its audience, I suggest you watch it again.

Btw, when you pass out, do you plan to bring the Cauvery to the drought trodden Chennai? Surprised that sometimes good work breeds contempt too.

LG, Vaarathukku intha mathiri oru post pothum...I'm becoming fan of "Debate King" Katz!

Katz, pattaya kelapureenga boss!!

Arun, Got your point. Yet what Katz says is so true. If you had the note, I said, despite being based on God Father script it had Mani Ratnam's brilliance.

Mani Ratnam would have been inspired by the Kubrick's brilliance, the Fellini charm and the Martin Scorsese excellence, just like millions of other film lovers. Just stealing camera angles and sequences from their films may not be enough to make a film a good as Nayakan.

And Katz,

but are content to beg, borrow, steal ideas themselves.
applaud they will a foreign good,
for that is their benchmark of creativity at best.
blinkered they remain in their belief,
that everything else fails in their subjective litmus test.

Loved these lines. True for many. Is that a sonnet(it had more lines though).

Anti, Thanks a ton for the link. My next post will tell you why I'm so thankful for the podcast ;-)

Prabhu V, Said that true. Katz has this ferocious yet brilliant way of debating. Happy to have him here!!

Ferrari, Can you pass me that chill pill that you are consuming !!

Wow, the mediocrity of the backslapping Machees is only matched by the ferocity with which Arun has been jumped upon. The mistake Arun makes is to take that piece of glossy trash called TIME too seriously - for someone who follows cinema so closely, sites like Somberi Geek's are best avoided.

now only i realize why smokers never pay heed to the "smoking is injurious to health" warning label. likewise, mr. anda kakka who has put out the warning tag "lazygeek site is injurious to spurious cinema fans" does not only visit the site and follow the thread but also posts a comment! wah wah! apparently this is what is known in politics as practicing what you preach! ;-)

katz

IyengaarVaal,

It's a bit like reading the trash that you read when you to the Barber's shop - In this case, I was flying over the vast wastelands of the net and decided to rest on a tree that happened to be this site. Now I must fly off - I have already to begun to sound like you ... ;-)

Anda Kaaka

mr. anda kaaka,

you have a choice not to read the trash in the barber shop. but after choosing to read it, you cannot complain that you are reading trash. whether what you read is trash or not is another matter of discussion. why pick up that trash in the first place unless you are curious to see what it contains? unless of course your argument is that since the trash was placed in the barber shop, i had to read it and so the blame lies squarely on the barber's shoulders for packing his salon with the same??? btw, i am trying to figure out just what bird you are, since there is only one kind that keeps hovering above your head to see if it can feast on any available pickings! ;-)

katz

katz,

>> i am trying to figure out just what bird you are, since there is only one kind that keeps hovering above your head to see if it can feast on any available pickings! ;-)

That was way too funny. Just cant help but roar in laughter. I think we also need to be wary of the bird's droppings !!!

Am wondering why we are getting too personal over Time's top 100 movie list... Some would approve of it, and some would not, but that's how it is right ?

here're my thots on nayagan and its nayagan!
http://www.geocities.com/ram_aishoo/Nayagan.htm

Beware of Anda Kakka(s)!!It is suffering from verbal diarrhoea!! Expect more 'bird droppings' all over the place! ;-)

Well somberigeek.com seems too cool to me.Thanks Andang kaakka.

BTW, are the you the one featuring on that Anniyan song Andang Kakka Kondakaari. Just Curious. Thanks for the suggestion though.

just one last statement, for all the enthrallment
that nayakan could provide, the movie ferociously exited out of the TN movie halls with a very poor show.
take care, i don't take the TIMES seriously it's the other dude-who wants to be a bard!

arun,

the issue was never about the quality of journalism propagated by TIME magazine. it was only about the quality cinema fare provided by the movie nayagan. the two issues are totally separate from each other, so don't make it look we are praising TIME. and i thought dubya was unique and uncommon!

katz

Arun,
whatz your take on films like MMKR,Guna,Anbe Sivam,Iruvar,Kannathil Muthamittal which exited out of movie halls so quick?

That made my day as well. thanks for the link Vilvanboy, Srivats, and Lazygeek.

Arun, Just two points to note ont he lines of Prabhu V.

a) I am no film student and i don't think it's a measure to enjoy cinema. I have learnt to appreciate cinema the hard way, by watching ;-)

b) You digress on your later statements. As Prabhu Venkat asked Nayakan could have 'ran' out of theatres. How about a nice movie called Sandhiyaa Raagam which made no starshow at the boxoffice. FYI, it was directed by a student of photography from the film institute of Pune called Balu 'Benjamin' Mahendra. Whats your take on Sandhiyaa Raagam ?

Katz, I was thinking that statement should be removed from the comment list. I did. Sorry about it but as it was a personal attack.

guru,

i am glad that you did remove that. i was split second too late into recovering from being so taken in by the rhyming word play of it all to stop the post in time. and that is why i posted the following comment, for it was inappropriate and personal and he never even got me worked up in any way to warrant that.

if you could remove the following post too, it will be cool or it will be sticking out like a sore thumb!

katz

I dont think am getting this-- who ever said that "nayagan" flopped at the box office????? guys, i wish had "film news" Anandan here!

Ram, I am pretty sure that Nayakan ran for over 200 days (refular shows) in Abhirami complex..It was a bonafide hit of 1987-88!

yeah, tho i was only 6 1/2 (1/2 nijaar payal basically!) at the time of its release, I somehow always thot that the movie was a superhit...and, prabhu has included MMKR in a list of commercial failures...?!! MMKR was *THE* movie that catapulted Crazy into the top echelon of Tamil Cinema...

ram,
I remember reading GV's interview in Vikatan(or Kumudam)around that time, where he said though Nayakan got great reviews, it dint fare well financially.

Vijays,
Films running good in Madras alone cant be considered as hits. I have seen films which were utterflops of Trichy crossing 100-day mark easily in Madras.

MMKR was a failure in Trichy, not sure about Madras.

ram,

mmkr was a flop when it released. it achieved the cult status only much later.

guru,

why spoil the nice write-up on nayagan with including rajini in it at the end as an after-thought???

katz

makes sense Katz. You are right. I thought so but then will put that as another post. Valid point.

The same will be about Mumbai Express and Virumaandi. It will be much appreciated only after few years as people are doing to Rajaparvai and MMKR.

am still quite skeptical of these comments on MMKR and Nayagan being commercial failures...oh well, I dont have any evidence so will shut up for now!

Nayakan is a great movie. Its based on the life of the don Varadarajan Mudaliar and perhaps in trying to bring it to screen, some damn camera angles might have been replicated. So? What the heck? How does that take it away from the movie being a great one?

Any story of any movie will have its inspiration from something: a book, a real life character, an incident...if not all these, then purely out of the writer's mind. Just because its not coming out purely out a person's mind, but from somewhere else...doesnt mean that the movie doesnt deserve to be in any list of gr8 movies. For me, a movie is a movie. If it makes me cry/laugh/think/feel entertained (these are not mutually exclusive), its purpose is served. A movie that serves this purpose to the highest degree is a great movie and Nayakan is a perfect example.

Wow !! Sorry i missed the show.

Arun, let us say, you are a film student. You do a lift on all the movies you mentioned. You could even take more. Steal the Scripts of Godfather. Make your hero get inspired by Marlon Brando. With all this, Can you make a movie as good as Nayakan ? Or make a movie that is discussed nearly 18 years after production ? I guess Manirathnam could.

Keerthivasan Sir,
Ondru Sonnai Adhuvum Nandru Sonnai!
ram

Reminds me of a comment Kamal made after Vikram: "Naan James Bond-a copy adikkiratha sila paer solraanga. Appadiyae irunthaalum, enna maathiri yaaraavathu copy adikka mudiyumaa?"

Nayakan was definitely a nice movie to watch and one of the better political movies (Roja, Bombay, Kannathil) Ratnam made. To call it his personal best would (in my eyes) be unjust to Mouna Raagam. I don't have a problem with Ratnam's many "borrowings" in the movie. I do think it wasn't his best work.

I love MMKR, and have watched it a few hundred times but it would never make my book of great cinema. If I were to put together a list of 100 best movies in the world and I had one spot for a Tamil movie, I'd give it to Muthal Mariyaathai.

kingsley,

no doubt mouna ragam was a good movie, but the impact or punch it carried was much less than nayakan. nayakan packed a full wallop, while mouna ragam did not. even today, mr. chandramouli, mr. chandramouli is the first thing people will unanimously agree upon when you discuss mouna ragam. but nayakan had so many such scenes that it makes it hard to choose which one is the best.

mmkr is not great cinema agreed, but it is one of the greatest full length comedy movie ever made. barring the climax alone, the movie was a coherent entertainer that can never be duplicated at all. that is why despite its initial failure, mmkr is a cult classic.

mudhal mariyadhai was a good movie, but in my opinion not deserving the one spot reserved for a tamil movie. only because that movie was too cinematic for its own good. nayagan deserves that spot for it is one of the few handfuls of movies that excelled in each department. and more importantly, despite being a movie about a human being on the wrong side of the law, it managed to create an aura of dignity around that character that it seemed more human than humans themselves. like godfather did and that is why these are great movies, for they did not make superheroes out of mere mortals, they made human beings out of them!

in case i don't see you all tomorrow, vanakkam, vandanam and namaskar!!! ;-)

katz

Ooooh...
46 comments!
and Lazy, dont call it ur blog anymore. www.lazygeek.net is public! ;) jus kidding.

Expected such response when i saw the post.
And for political-correctness, MMKR was not a big hit. It was average grosser in A centres and quite a flop in B. Who cares?

And, now who ever thought Nayagan was driven out of movie halls? Nayagan was one of the biggest hits of the year.

And Katz (in case i don't see you all tomorrow, vanakkam, vandanam and namaskar!!! ;-)), for the intense guy you are, you are bound to come back and blast the nay-sayers again.. ;) Cheers man!

Hi,

To be frank, i haven't seen Nayagan completely yet. I have seen only bits and pieces from the movie. I don't know why but whenever i try to watch it fully, something would stop me. But know, i feel i have missed something really great, will watch it soon on the DVD. And why can't the debate continue about the other movies in top 100 as well. Are all the movies in the list deserving? Personally i thought "Titanic", Roberto Begnini's "Life is beautiful" are notable missings in the list. Can anyone here tell me about, What is so great in the movie "Pyaasa" as i haven't heard about or seen this movie.

Smile
Sureshkumar

Suresh,
U kidding when u say u haven't seen Nayagan yet?

I would rather like missing Titanic ;). On a serious note, when any top-10/100/xx list is made, if we talk about movies left behind, then there are always hell-a-lot..
ippa naama vantha movies'a paththi paesuvomae (said with Kamal's tone in MX - ippa naama tamizh varradha paththi'yae paesuvomae!) ;)

Kings, True, Mudhal Mariyadhai was top of the charts.

Srihari, lol !!

Suresh, Titanic could be missed not because it was an outright commercial hit but because it could have been better. I am sure it deserves a place but not sure if it is in Top 100 All time.

Life is beautiful should have been there as you mentioned. But as Srihari said, to talk about the movies left it would be a lifetime.

Srihari,

I mean it, believe me, i haven't seen Nayagan yet fully. Yes, ofcourse there is a lot to debate if we talk about the leftouts. So, we better not. What about Pyaasa. Do you know anything about that movie?

LG

honestly speaking i don't see chance of any betterment in that movie? To me, it is a perfectly made movie. I personally feel that its huge commercial success makes the so called critics to find fault in it and get name and fame out of it just like the local politicians do by bashing on Rajini and Kamal continuously.

Smile
Sureshkumar

It really surprizes me that ppl can turn against a friendly, neutral blogsite like this too!!! Andankaaka shd be a funny person in real life with a screw slightly popping up :)
Nayagan is no doubt a wonderful movie for the uninformed, plain, sensible movie goers. Whether it is "THE ONE" or not is purely a personal call.. (My personal all time favorite is "Vedham Pudhidhu", although be it with umpteen flaws, and who knows, lifted from somewhere :) )
I am again not sure of TIMES magazine's quality of the list but it has helped a great deal on one thing - It has made its vast readers' pool notice that there is some language called "Tamil" and movies are made in that.. Thanks a lot for that to TIMES and even many more to the crew of "Nayagan", which made this happen. Now probably the left-out, buried movies like Kannathil, Iruvar, Sandhya Ragam, Veedu and even Vedham pudhidhu (:) )would probably get digged out by movie buffs around the world...
Long live these wonderful TIMES :)

P.S.: Katz, the poetic prose was gr8!!!

Geek...

Chanceless. 52 Comments as of Now. Great Going for OUR NAYAGAN (Thats U MAN).

-Shiva

Calling Mani the leader of Tamil filmdom is what is the cruelest joke about the whole article.
It just shows that, what Hollywood knows about Tamil filmdom is through Bollywood. I can't imagine Nayakan being recognised had Mani or Kamal not been regularly making movies in Hindi.
Bharathiraaja,Mahendran and Cheran are surely better directors than Mani but never will they attain the same status. Their fault being that they make more natural films which will be quintessentially Tamil or (in the case of moviemakers like Balachander quintessentially Indian).And they will make it in tamil only.
It is for this reason I care two hoots for the Time's comment (though Nayakan is one very good film). My criticism is not about the movie but about the overhyping of the director. It is again a case of the typical Bollywood and Bollywood approved products being showcased to the world as the Indian output.
As some one already pointed a Vedam Pudhidhu is as good a movie as Nayakan with very good performance from Sathyaraj Saritha and the kid Dasarathy.
But would it have come to the notice of Times. I doubt it.

Shiva, Thanks.

Mutrupulli, I can agree to your comment in parts. But then Cheran ? Cheran ???

full stop,

in your view the directors could be better than manu rathnam and you may have your own reasons for the same, but the matter of fact is none of them made or will ever make a movie like nayagan! this is not about the man or men who created a movie, but this is about a movie that was brought to life by men. btw, mani rathnam never made any hindi movie prior to roja. and for you to think the only reason nayagan was selected was because of kamal's exposure in hindi movies seems short sighted. it is like saying the only reason the india is famous in the world today is because of BPO!

and nayagan was natural and indian in its creation. now because it was selected in the TIME's list, it ceases to be indian?? what next, isi's sadhi to blacklist tamil cinema by ensuring nayagan was on the list? and what do you mean by your directors will make movies only in tamil? nayagan was in which language then? urdu? remember, movies have no language for a truly good movie can be relished all over the world. like nayagan. finding fault with someone for making movies in hindi is an extremely narrow-minded approach.

finally, bollywood did not approve of nayakan, the world approved of it and that is why it is on the list my friend ;-)

katz

mutrupuLLi,

Balachandar made quintessentially Indian Movies.
Wow. Does it mean every Indian indulges in bigamy/polygamy??

No wonder you are not able to appreciate Maniratnam movies!

And as Lazy asked you rate Cheran more than maniratnam??

mutRupuLLi!
Nice point made.

Mahendran, sure is, THE man we should all be talking about in Tamil Cinema for years. And, Mani has no qualms in accepting this as he has told in many interviews of his. But, as Lazy already pointed out, Cheran????

Just as an info, read Mani's interview here where he mentions abt Mahendran, Uthiri pookkal, and Bharathiraja's 16 Vayathinile. Great to go thru if you hadnt already.

and mutRupuLLi!
Regardless of all these things, Nayagan sure is a landmark in Tamil Cinema.
and IMHO, the movies from Cheran have never even come anywhere near Nayagan or any of Mani's better efforts.
And for KB and BR, IMHO, none of the movies from them have equalled a movie like Nayagan. Though they did make some excellent movies.

Cheran was a wrong quote in mutRupuLLi's list. However Mahendran (Uthiri pookal, mullum malarum), Bharathiraja (many a movies), Balachander (again, many a movies) and Balu Mahendra (for a few movies) are all greats of tamil filmdom who've changed the regular movie parameters and patterns in their unique styles. Now certainly Maniratnam is part of that list. No denying that. But to say Nayagan is "THE BEST" all time movie in Tamil film industry is highly subjective.. For that matter, "Veera pandiya katta bomman" might seriously contend against "Velu nayakkar" for the crown. So, "Nayagan", being a good movie better known to the current generation has made it to the top 100 list doesn't mean it is officially "THE ONE".. For that matter, even oscars are debated around and cannot be the final verdict delivered for each year.. But yes, its great that it has made it to the list and hence made our section of the world proud and popular...
Now coming to the bollywood approval stamps on Indian regional movies, I disagree with it. Many a malayalam, bengali, tamil and other regional movies which are lesser known to "bollywood", have made it big in international film festivals and other events. It is upto the film maker's enthusiasm, belief and capacity (financial inclusive) to push his film to any arena that will decide the popularity of a movie. So, when Mani had the belief and capacity, probably Bharathiraja didn't have the push and belief perhaps... Who knows, else we could've been hailing Mahendran's "Uthiri pookal" in the top 100 list ...
Letz not pull cheran or thankar bachan into the debate, comparing against the remaining signposts of the industry, as they are just toddlers who are also trying in their own way to show the smell of the earth they know in their movies.

KATZ,
I very clearly stated that my comment is not about the movie( I love the movie as much as the next man) My point is about the comment on Mani( calling him the leader and all that).
So i am in no way commenting about the movie.

LG and others,
Why cheran???? Because he makes natural movies. He does not spoil his movie like the Mani's and Shankar's bringing in 6 songs and some irritating comedy(in Shankar's case) and hope that it will boost the movie at the box office.Neither does he dilute the issue he takes like Mani. Mani and Shankar are masters at it. They take good themes but goof up in the execution. Bombay, Mudhalavan, Uyire are prime examples of a good idea spolit.
I didn't have a good opinion about Cheran for a long time.After experiencing DESIYA GEETHAM i changed my stand. Here was a director who would dare to make a political movie in his third film and not goof up.Though a commercial failure this one was on par with Balachander'sThaneer Thaneer and Achhamillai Achhamillai and Bharathiraaja's En Uyir Thozhan. Cheran should conduct classes for Mani and Shankar about where to include songs
in a movie.(ofcourse Kamal too could teach them that). Nearly 5 of the 7 songs in DG are perfectly situated and have just the lyrics necessary for the situation. And the core idea and execution of the movie are just a few other points about the movie which I found was incredible.
Now is it justifiable to call him a great director on the strength of one good movie ?But even his not so good movies like Autograph, Vetri Kodi Kattu and Pandavar Bhoomi were refreshingly different,had good themes and were sensitively and sensibly handled. He for one surely does not do "arachamavaye arachufying " activity. And he does make movies which are more closer to the people of TamilNadu, thereby retaining the native flavour which is so absent in most of the movies today. This can be seen very clearly in his choice of heroines.
Finally was I right in including Cheran with KB
and Bharathiraaja and Mahendran? Maybe not. But give the young man enough time.He surely has the spark in him to make more meaningful cinema. Cheran is no mean guy and serious movie watchers should pay him a lot of attention.
And i personally rate him above Mani.

just the idea of including cheran in this debate and talking abt him in the same breath as mani ratnam mahendran and bharathiraja is laughable!!

and cheran shd take classesn for mani ratnam abt placement of songs?!! HA! that is preposterous!!

rehashing mera naam joker and calling it autograph is NOT great cinema!

each filmmaker has his own style and way of narration..just coz mani ratnam's movies are not rustic or rural enough does not make him any less a genius!

and mr. fullstop...by stressing again that you have nothing against the movie but against the man..you are not placating yourself..you just made it worse...displayed what an ignoramus you are!

and seriously...cheran???

All those who said Nayakan didnt fair well in the box office.. give one slap yourself on your face.. Poor memory or amnesia...
Nayakan was released on Deepavali of 1987.. Its staunch competitor was 'Manithan'.. but Nayakan won the race hands down all over Tamilnadu.. It was a silver jubilee hit in all the major cities.. It was such a unique movie.. it did very well in all A, B and C centres.. so much for 'art movie' tag, huh?

GP, apdiye MMKR b-o status pathiyum konjam clarification, please!

Mahendran is a very good director but I don’t think his movies must be in Time’s elite list. Making a story about a possessive brother is nothing path breaking. Mullum Malarum was presented very well and had natural acting from its lead cast. It is a good film but is never a contender to represent Tamil Cinema on Time.
Uthiri pookal was a brave attempt, Mahendran had the courage to penetrate harshness but Kamal was more honest and bold in Mahanadhi. Uthiri Pookal is a very good movie but not a Top 100 contender.
Maniratnam is far better than Mahendran, Balu Mahendra, Balachander, Bharatiraaja and the little kid Cheran.

mutrupuli,

songs and dances are the spirit of all indian movies. if you believe that mani rathnam spoils movies with songs, then why not utilize the same barometer for cheran and the others? the question is not whether the the songs in the movie called desiya geetham was perfectly suited, but whether they were needed at all? the only time when songs act as deterrant in a movie is when they are tacked on just for commercial reasons. shankar has done it in the past with maya machindra in indian (kamal apparently felt that was an unnecessary song). but it cannot be used as THE criterion on whether a movie is good or bad. as for your claim that shankar confuses the issue, shankar believes in commercial cinema and his aim is to sugar coat any serious issue in order to help it reach a bigger audience. if properly executed, it can really work well (indian for example).

you are right in saying that cheran cant be judged by one movie and the other three movies listed offer proof of his versatility???? are you implying that mani rathnam does the same movie over and over again? compare mouna ragam, nayagan, alaipayudhey, agni nakshatram, anjali and tell me that they are all the same?? be fair dude. one can pick holes in all of cheran's movies too if you want to.

tamil flavour??? what is tamil flavour?? heroine selection is tamil flavour?? dude, where is the objectivity when it comes to comparing movies??? cheran retains the tamil flavour because he makes movies that are village based? then bharatiraja has got to be the best director in the whole wide world. pandavar bhoomi was a nice attempt, but i am sure loving brother-sister combos have been done before him too. but the bottom-line is all of his movies combined together still cannot match upto A NAYAGAN! it is not what you are capable of that matters, it what you end up doing that counts! mani rathnam did a nayagan. cheran has not. so lets leave this who is better than another and just wholly agree that nayagan was a great movie. for this post is about nayagan only.

katz

ps- was cheran the one who did the movie with parthiban and murali who get conned by gaja on getting to dubai???? if yes, then please leave cheran on the bottom rung of the directorial ladder!

MMKR was a moderate success.. Released in 1990 , it came out as the most successful of Diwali movies. This movie too did uniformly throughout Tamilnadu.. marginally worse in C centres. It crossed 100 days in a theatre each in Chennai, Madurai, Trichy and Kovai.

katz, the cheran movie u r referring to is "vetri kodi kattu."

Guys,

Why waste time on someone who is saying cheran is better than maniratnam. And also talking abt Mani and Shankar in same breath. Ulloor vaitherichal ghosthinga paa. Vittu thaLLunga

mutrupuLLI,
By your same argument, I would rate ramarajan and ramanarayanan much above than cheran. If you talk rural thing as subject, karagattakaaran was way above your paandavar bhoomi or whatever! Karagattakaran was very realistic!!!

And rural areas la everyone respects and worships snakes elephants and all. Adha vachi ramanarayanan 100 movies kku mela eduthutaaru. And many of them were successful too.

So I feel they both are far better when compared to cheran.

BTW how come you left P Vasu, TP Gajendran etc from your elite list??

ferrari,

lets not put down village oriented themes. sometimes, those are the stories that have a lot more basic emotions without any distractions. the argument is not that cheran is not a good director or cannot be a good director. the argument is only that he cannot be adjudged a good director because he makes village oriented movies thereby retaining the tamil flavour. that cannot and should not be the criterion.

and c'mon dont compare karagattakaaran with pandavar bhoomi. while both were cinematic in many aspects, especially the villains etc, the latter had a less toned down and a very natural feel to it compared to the former. and in the city also people worship elephants and snakes. in fact, i love to get blessed by the kovil yaanai. i have dont it since a child and continue it today too, just because i like it. dont use that as reasons to dumb down the villages and the people who live there. now you are going off on a emotional tangent away from this thread.

can cheran outdo manirathnam? we will have to wait and see. right now we cant compare, for mani has yet to make a good village based movie (his script for doj maghal sucked). and likewise, cheran has to make a city based movie to show his range.

the only comparison between cheran and mani rathnam can be is that nayagan was mani's fourth movie (source: imdb.com) cheran's was probably vetri kodi kattu or autograph and comparing those two products alone, mani comes on tops with a great movie while cheran comes with a good movie (if it was autograph). therefore, looking at it objectively, NAYAGAN RULES!!!

katz

* done it since the time i was a child

lol.... I guess it is unfair to compare Cheran and Mani...I feel all Cheran's movies are too loud..."idam sutti porul vilakam tharuga" stuff...

Everytime a topic which is rempotely related to Mani is written , then this issue pops up time and again...Maybe it is time to rank up the directors of tamilcinema without any prejudice...ofcourse,each one of these directors are special in their own rite ,but a ranking would stop all Mani bashers from bashing him(Me included)...Cos it is the overhyping of Mani that piss them off..

My ranking would be this...

1)Balu Mahendra
2)Kamal Haasan
3)Jayakanthan(yea..only 2 movies..but they were gr8)
4)Mahendran
5)Maniratnam
6)Rudraiya
7)Bharatiraja
8)Balaji saktivel
9)K.Balachander
10)R.C.Sakthi

Ofcourse i have left gr8 directors like K.Vishwanath and Singeetham Rao ,cos they rarely make tamil movies(most of their tamil films are dubbed verisons)

Well,u may question why a Balaji Saktivel comes before KB and why Mani is at fifth place...the ratinale Behind the raking is simple...a bad movie will move the directors position down as a good movie will take his position up...simple...

that is why a Mani is at numero 5..cos he made some lousy movies off late...(if one could take only Mouna Raagam , Nayagan , Iruvar and Kannathil..into cosideration , droping the terrorism trilogy of Mani ,assuming that he never made those movies , then I would most certainly rank him at number 2(or even no 1 ,cos balu Mahendra made a lousy movie offlate)....

watsay people?

As Ram was asking about MMKR, MMKR was a decent above-average hit in A centres, meaning madras (It completed 100 days in Baby Albert which was/is by no way one of the leaders in the theatres cicuit). But dint go all that well in other cities & B-C circuits.
Cheran vs Mani?? hmmm... No comments!

Arvind!
"idam sutti porul vilakam tharuga" stuff...
LOL!!
I kinda agree with you on Mani's lesser-than-his-standard efforts, i.e., the terrorism trilogy. I would discount a "Pagal Nilavu" coz that was during early days. But after making Nayagan, Mouna Raagam and then going backwards until the inimitable Iruvar (leave Anjali alone coz I don't want to call it "sub-standard" straight away) was not quite acceptable.
Ironically thats what (Terrorism Trilogy - Roja, Bombay and Uyire) he is famous for at a national level. All these movies put him on popular bollywood map (I say, popular bollywood map to talk about the common bollywood audience; Of course, the bollywood industry ppl knew Nayagan all too well and remade it time and again ;). Though Dil Se was a flop, it was originally made in hindi, first of its kind for Mani. And thanks to ARR's soundtrack the movie sustained Mani's place in the so-called Indian Cinema. Thank God Time chose a movie like Nayagan rather than an effort like Roja/Bombay.

katz,

Dont get me wrong. I stand by what I said. I say ramarajan and ramanarayanan are better than cheran. I enjoyed karagattakaaran more than paandavar bhoomi. And I never said anything bad abt village movies or animal movies!!!

I am saying there are people better than Cheran who can handle such movies!!!

TP Gajendran was a nice choice Prabhu !!

Srihari,

Thanks for the link to MR's interview. I don't remember reading this at all! I loved Sujatha's question to MR which sums it up all:

"How do you feel when some films are criticised just because you are Mani Ratnam, without acknowledging their true merits?"

ROTFL @ TP Gajendran!!! I agree, Cheran is too loud and melodramatic...

In Paandavar Bhoomi, two big fat middle aged babes do skipping(!!)... and if that itself is a heart breaking scene to digest, their brother Raj Kiran makes them jump on his hands!!! And still worse, he doesnt end up with a fractured hand!!! Did Cheran have to stoop down so much so show something called "brother's love"!! If THIS is called realistic cinema, give me a break!!! Even Paasa Malar would lose out on the melodrama scale, if compared to Paandavar Bhoomi!!!

Compare that with Mullum Malarum, Rajni will keep marudhani on Shoba's hands after she sleeps... Isn't that a much more poetic way to show sibling love? A good director should be able to tug peoples emotions without any dialogues, without any tears, but jus with Silence! Mahendran does that in Mullum Malarum...

Btw LG, mailed you a marathon sized comment, would like to know what you think!:)

Agree with Arvind's listing except for Balaji Saktivel (just one good movie). Am pleasantly surprised that people still remember Rudraiya and Jeyakanthan.

Ferrari, I can see you are angry about comparing Cheran and Mani. But you can't place Cheran with Ramanarayanan and Ramarajan. Cheran is far better than them. If you liked Karagattakkaran, you should have metioned Gangai Amaran as he was the director, not Ramarajan :-).

One point in favor of Cheran is he doesn't give into commercial compromises like having a fight scene / song scene unnecessarily. And his films reverberate with the pulse of rural Tamilnadu, where everything is loud. He might not be there yet as a great director, but for heavens sake dont place him on par with Ramanarayanan.

Katz,
Maybe i did not explain fully. I am no way against songs or dances. A perfectly placed song is a better way of making a point(like the "Yaar Yaar Sivam" in AS and "Karumathur Kattukulle" and "Karbagiruhamvittu sami veliyerudhu" song in virumandi) The question is , is the song necessary for the movie? Tell me, are most of songs in Mani's movies neccessary?. Even in nayakan the NaanSiricha Deepavali song could have been done away with.What did it add to the movie.
Wouldn't Bombay Uyire and Iruvar have made better viewing in the absence of all those stupid songs.
Those songs slacken the pace and in my opinion
do not allow the viewer to gel with the theme of the movie.
I don't find the arguement that all this additional items are to ensure the mass acceptance of the movie, having any strength.
If a director has to resort to all such tomfoolery to make people accept his product then how can he be very good director? Even here i can accept a certain amount of flexibility.But not downright submission to formula.
Tell me was the first half of Anjali anyway related to the rest of the movie. I can understand him trying to set the context for about 30 minutes.But the rest was total crap?
Same too with Bombay. I am not wasting my breadth commenting aboutAgninatshathiram.
And yeah one can find flaws in Mahanadi and Hey Ram too, but what makes them Tamil Classics is the effect of the flaw on the movie as such.
Mani falls behind when we take that into account.

And calling Cheran's movies loud..!!!!. Isn't our culture loud. Everything we do is loud and flashy( yes even the city bred snobs like us). And that is how we are!! Nothing to feel bad about that.
And if that is the comment about Cheran, is the
way Mani's characters speak very natural. All that monosyllabled words and half sentences...yuch.
My comment about heroines was a comment pointed at Shankar, I guess. But the spirit of the comment is still valid.

And "mamamia" ..what levels of snobbery from our citybred cousins.

Mutrupulli, I have to interuppt here to add a point that might take this discussion on a desired path.

If songs are needed are not is a diff issue and we shouldn't be talking about it here by citing various movies. It's a commercial path set and people like Mani Ratnam are still trying to come out of that vicious circle. Vidai Kodu Engal Naadey !! and the other Srilankan song of Kannathail M never had devoted time on-screen. There were situational like many Kamalhassan movie songs these days. So songs is a diff topic and its needs its own bandwidth to talk,

As you said, I could agree that we are often loud and hence Cheran movies end up loud. In my opinion Cheran is like Nannan. Remember Vazhkai Kalvi on DD. He has a stick in his hand and teaches lesson. So he doesn't amaze me. If only he reduces the tone of his movies to be subtle yet on target, I would prefer. But I don't think it may often in recent future. So comparing Mani and Cheran isn't right atleast now. They are from different schools of thought and the side you take depends on which school you subscribe to. I subscribe to the school which says not to advocate any theologies through movie but subtly hint at them, making people think about it as they leave the theatre instead of taking 2+ 2=4 class inside the theatre ;-)

Ask Cheran to make a 2 year old baby act!

And you are talking abt songs as an intrusion.

Adhu eppadi sir ora vanjanai? Karuppu dhaan enakku pidicha coloru appadinu malavaika dance aadina it gels with the story!!!

But oru brothel kku pora dharavi guy, paata rasikaradhu intrusion!!!

If village bred people can think they can get away with double standards, city bred have no other option to be snobbish!!!

over and out!

Boss.. Did u listen to that podcast? Interesting a irundhuchu :)

Whom are we comparing Mani to?
Talking abt songs in Mani's movies, the only mainstream filmmaker who cares a heck abt songs (with almost zero-intrusion) is Kamal Haasan.
I dont think we are we talking abt filmmakers like B. Lenin who dont have songs in their movies?
If its Cheran, only noticeable difference between songs in Mani and Cheran is that the songs from latter's movies range from poor to absolutely unpalatable.

**I dont think we are talking abt filmmakers like B. Lenin who dont have songs in their movies.**

Srihari,

Maddy singing pachai nirame is an intrusion to the movie.

But that gundu lady dancing with rajkiran in ovvru vaazhvilum song is realistic!!!

madhubaala singing chinna chinna aasai is an intrusion and pathetic picturisation.

but meena jumping and dancing for chingu cha chingu cha is damn realistic!!

oru emotional vegathula kamal telling delhi ganesh, vaangarom. onnu illai..4 ambulance vaangarom is illogical and cityish.

but parthiban going to muralis village and murali coming to parthiban village. and both acting that the other has gone to dubai is realistic.

murali singing thanjavur manneduthu is amazingly realistic. man paanai seyyaravanga ellam appadi dhaan iruppaanga

but oru arasiyal vaadhi avaroda ichchaigaL poorthi seidha ponna paathu 'unnoda naan irundhu ovvoru maNi thuLiyum maRavadhu kaNmaNiye' is too filmy.

More errata:
**the only mainstream filmmaker who doesn't care a heck abt songs (with almost zero-intrusion) is Kamal Haasan.**

Anti, I did listen to the podcast on my new Zen ;-) Yeah it was pretty intereting but I had a thinking myself on which lines the selection was done. After hearing the podcast, i was happy that i was right. But because of the echo the audio quality was poor.

Ferarri, rendu naala nee ezhuthara comment semma comedy. comedy time thaan po !!

I take LG's point to a certain extent...Cheran does preach..esp in Vetri Kodi Kattu..and Porkaalam.But wasn't that what Mani did in the climax of Bombay and Roja. Roja was atleast palatable. Bombay's climax was downright laughable.
And making a two year old act is certainly a feat but that does not erase the blunders of 4 songs, and the hordes of precocious
kids talking and actinglike adults and people talking in hushed voices for no reason.

Cheran will remain a notch above Mani for me.
But my original point was not Cheran..but was about Mani being referred to as leading the pack in Tamil.
While all the emphasis was on describing Cheran
as a persona non Grata of tamil cinema, my original point still remains undiscussed. Bollywood does not represent Indian movies and there are great movies which go unrecognised just because the movie was not accepted by Bollywood.So is nayakan the best Tamil filmdom has produced. My answeris NO.

nirutha sollu...
ellathayum nirutha sollu... :-)

Mutrupulli,
Innikku date-la, undoubtedly, Mani Ratnam is the one who is leading the pack. He's the one to look out for. There are a lot of new guys who are quite promising, like Gautham Menon etc, but Mani rules! But does that make him the best ever, may be not, but that's not my point.

I agree, our culture is loud... a good point would be our weddings, all of them being gala 3 day affairs.. but still I would say the weddings shown in Hum Aapke Hain Kaun or K3G were jarring, but Monsoon wedding was excellent! Both showed the same gala weddings, but wasnt there a distinct difference in treatment? [excuse me for talking abt Hindi movies completely out of context, but I cudnt think of a better example]

Same thing holds good for anything.. A brother and sister katti pudichindu azhuthu, sapaadu ooti vittu, idhellam senja thaan affection illa... For friendship too, the stuff shown between Murali, Parthiban, Charlie etc had me in splits! Whereas see Dil chahta hai, they have differences of opinion... they are not "ideal"... thats what is real life, and that shud reflect in movies... Jus coz we are emotional people and our culture is loud, ellathayum exaggerate pannaradhu is totally unacceptable! Which is what ur favorite Cheran does!

All his movies were loud... In Bharatikannamma, that guy will jump into the fire when she dies!! Does it happen anywhere? Not the case of being loud, its being very unrealistic... In porkalam, Murali will talk pages and pages about physical and mental handicaps etc... if that wasnt enuf, you had Vadivelu singing too!! and you actually think that song gelled with the movie???? I am literally going ROTFL!

And for heavens sake, don’t argue jus for the sake of arguing... It dilutes the topic in discussion.. Ferrari has pointed out so many funny instances of lousy songs in Cheran's movies, and yet you say he is better than Mani!! Yaen sir ippadi kuppara vizhundhalum meesaila mann ottala madiri irukkenga?

Agreed, some songs in Mani's movies could be done with.. Like Arabic kadaloram in Bombay, Something something in Anjali, Rukumani in Roja etc... But dont add "naan siricha deepavali" and all to the list... inspite of being a brothel song, it was so aesthetically picturised, nowhere vulgar... and it perfectly geled with the movie! And even if the songs are unnecessary, can you name one director who picturises them so well as Mani? If you are in a theater watching a Mani movie, you wouldnt go out to smoke when a song comes. You would wait and watch it. Not the case with Cheran. I think picturizing songs is an art in itself, and undoubtedly, Mani is the best in that.

Can Cheran in all his life picturise a song like "Nee oru kadhal sangeetham"? Definitely not. Both "Pachai nirame" and "karuppu thaan enakku pudicha color" talked essentially about colors... But the former being a real treat to ur eyes, the latter was a pain in the wrong place! Mani showed karuppu color with rain clouds, whereas Cheran showed hundred females showing their navels and dancing with a karuppu sari!!! Yuck!

In the newer directors, Bala is ok with song picturization.. I loved Mun paniya in Nanda.. and Ilankaathu veesudhe was nicely done too... Even Balaji sakthivel is better than Cheran… In Kadhal, all the songs gelled with the movie… even in Samurai, he had picturised the nature song very well… I think Cheran should first learn from these guys, till then not even think about Mani and all…

Wow !! Nithya that one got most of the points of contrast between Mani Ratnam and Cheran. You marathon mail that you had sent me about directors in general was consummate. Let me if its ok to put that here. Great commentary !!

BTW, I would have been happy if the discussion hadn't turned into Mani Ratnam Vs Cheran. Even if was list of cues to Mani Ratnam about issues on his films that some cannot digest it would have been a great resource. Mani continues to remain as the most controversial director of times, for good ;-)

If they wanted to credit Manirathnam it should have been for Roja which is an all India Hit ,
good love film, against terrorism,good direction.

Nayagan is just a story of mafia and doesnt
deserve award for such a character potrayal.

Thanks LG, sure you can. Yeah, it's sad we are discussing Mani Ratnam vs Cheran, when he shud be discussed against the likes of Mahendran! Malaikkum madukkum comparison!!:D

Ram,
Time hasn't recognized Nayagan was dealing with a good subject or anything, I think its more of recognizing good film making. In that respect, Nayagan is way ahead of Roja. In fact, Godfather itself is about Mafia etc, but isnt it one of the greatest films of all time!?

Nithya!
With 94 comments already, there ought to be more than a single topic that would have been discussed. Starting from "Is Mani overhyped?" and "Mani vs Cheran", there was a discussion on songs as intrusions in the flow of movie. Now, u directed it towards who's songs are aesthetically appealing (about which Cheran needs a preliminary education anyways!) :).
Mani's songs are fantastic and aesthetically appealing. But, he is yet to completely get rid of songs that are very inappropriate in their place. And in that aspect, definitely one man heads the front in tamil film industry and he is Kamal Haasan.

Nithya!
With 94 comments already, there ought to be more than a single topic that would have been discussed. Starting from "Is Mani overhyped?" and "Mani vs Cheran", there was a discussion on songs as intrusions in the flow of movie. Now, u directed it towards who's songs are aesthetically appealing (about which Cheran needs a preliminary education anyways!) :).
Mani's songs are fantastic and aesthetically appealing. But, he is yet to completely get rid of songs that are very inappropriate in their place. And in that aspect, definitely one man heads the front in tamil film industry and he is Kamal Haasan.

Srihari,
That part about appealing songs in Mani's movies was jus to emphasize that though he adds songs, they are atleast pleasing and not jarring like Mr.Cheran!

Ofcourse, I think it goes without saying that Kamal rules! He even went to the extent of pushing the Ram Ram number to the end titles in Hey Ram... and Nee partha paarvai, for all the classiness in it, was still not used as a whole... instead Kamal sprinkled the song generously all through the movie! And in Virumandi too, he used only one stanza of the Onna vida song... he is brilliant, beyond compare! Everyone needs to take a lesson or two from Kamal:) On how to make movies with no compromises whatsoever!

lets stop this Mani vs Chera thing... unfair!

rather we will talk abt Mani Vs balu Mahendra or Kamal Haasan.that would be fair i guess...all of them belong to the same domain of filmmaking,with different styles and practices and theories(good filmmakers ,making films that reach a wider audience) Lets not bring in a Mani vs Satyajit Ray or Mrinal sen ,cos they belong to a different genre... And for godsake , no more Chera...If U r insistent about Chera , then I will bring in VIkraman ,TP Gaja , Gangai Amaran etc... and let hell break loose ......

Maverick takes a single and moves on to 99. The crowd is on its feet waiting for the century.

And here is the moment everyone was waiting for. Maverick pushes it past the bowler and reaches 100. ***Standing ovation****.

Now, it is time for consolidation again and the crowd is hoping that Katz, Muttrupuli,Ferrari and others would rally around Maverick to push the score closer to 200.

That was a leg bye. So the run will added to extras and not to your name :-p